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Motor sail option?

Albin's "power cruisers"
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DesertAlbin736
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Motor sail option?

Post by DesertAlbin736 »

When we bought our Albin four years ago it came complete with the early version of factory optional sail rig as seen in the owner manual drawing. Everything was there, mast, boom, rigging, full set of sails including a main, three jibs, Furlex roller furler, even an asymetrical spinnaker with dowsing sock.

I've never attempted to use it, since as a former sailboater the idea was to get away from the hassles of mast raising. The immediate prior owners had never used it either, just passed all the gear along that they in turn had inherited from other previous owners.

But now, contemplating this big Desolation Sound cruise this summer, and having read this account of one owner's experience I'm thinking maybe it might be worth the effort to bring it along.
"... I spent 12 hours over the weekend cruising/motoring/sailing in a rigged A 25. After plenty of "testing" in various winds and speeds and waves, I have come to the following conclusions:
• If you want a sailboat get a sailboat. This is a motorsailer combining the words motor and sails not really a cruiser and not really a sailboat.
• The mast and sails make a significant difference in the ride compared to a stripped cruiser. With even just the mast up (not sail) the amount of roll is significantly decreased. Taking a wake wave broadside results in a considerable decrease in how much and how dramatically the boat rolls. She seems to take the first lean and then just nicely return to vertical without a lot of that back and forth rolling that I experience in my non-mast boat. With the main up, that roll is slower and even more gentle.
• With the main sail and the motor on about 1100 rpm in a mild breeze we cruise along at about 6 mph using almost zero fuel. If and when we needed to come about or otherwise maneuver the boat, the prop pushing on the rudder moved the boat to exactly where we wanted to be. We found that we could overpower the wind and basically invalidate any wind assist by jacking the speed but if we kept the RPM'S down and not try to push the speed up, wind assist was definitely a factor. By adding the Jib we got just a tad more speed and we could again drop the rpm a bit and still maintain our approximate 6 mph. By controlling the jib and main we found that we could usually get some wind assist regardless of wind direction and maintain the heading that we wanted to be on.
• Conclusion: The added mast and sails provide two things to the boat: a)wind assist when you are not in any big hurry (keep the motor on low RPM to help with steering; b) stabilization - without main sail you get some just from the mast but with the main sail even just hanging you get added stability on rolls. (There is a whole section on the technical aspects of this also in the Owner's Manual that is in the files); c) the Albin 25 is what it is = motor sailor . Now there appears to be a new category: you can go sailing or you can go cruising or you can go motorsailing..... each one is different with different applications."
Of course I'm under no illusion of making the A25 into a real sailboat with windward performance anything like our old Catalina 25 had. I'd only install the conventional forestay, not the roller furler (too much hassle to set up), and only bring the main & one working jib. This is more about roll dampening, occasional boost from the sails if the wind conditions are right, that is beam or broad reach in 7 or 8 knot winds. But there are another couple of positives to consider. One, with a VHF antenna mounted atop the mast a good 28 feet above the water that improves our transmitting & receiving range, including the AIS receiver function & distress calling range Two, an anchor light atop the mast instead of the one that's only as high as the wheel house, and three, it has a small deck light mounted on the upper shroud spreader which can light up the whole foredeck, and finally as a last ditch if slow means of propulsion in case of engine failure.

The trick will be getting it set up. The mast is 22 feet long, weight between 30 to 40 lbs, and will stow on the trailer's frame rail when transporting the boat over the road. The hardest part will be hoisting it up from ground level to deck level & getting the base of the mast attached to the step. Most sailboats I'm used to raise the mast from stern to bow. Because of the wheel house this one has to go up bow to stern. In a way that's good, because I can use the sail boom as a lever arm. Usually one could use the mainsheet tackle as a hoist mechanism, but I have a small 12V electric offroad ATC winch that I can attach to the mainsheet tang & have the Admiral power it up while I steady it and make sure shrouds don't snag on the way up. Then there's the issue of keeping the mast from tipping side to side as it goes up. I'm working on that aspect, and leaning toward the idea of rigging poles made of galvanized electrical conduit pipe, either 3/4" or 1/2". Or maybe a 1/2 inch inside a 3/4 for adjustable length, and attach the bottoms to blocks up against the handrails. Or maybe 2x2 wood? That, and make a support crutch to go over the bow rails and a plywood shield to protect the windshield glass in case the mast slips. If I can do that, other than lifting it up to deck level and pinning the base, the actual raising won't involve much muscle effort. Previous owners included a stout topping lift (former sailors will know what those are) and a three part line to hold to boom at 90 degrees.

A25 mast install from manual.jpg
0305141748.jpg
Here's the basic mast raising idea. The line from the top of the mast to the outer end of the boom is the "topping lift".
aaginpole.jpg
182 Motor sail.jpg
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Last edited by DesertAlbin736 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
La Dolce Vita
1971 Albin 25 #736
Yanmar 3GM30F
Gig Harbor Boatworks Nisqually 8 dinghy
Residence: Peoria, AZ
Homeport: Lake Pleasant, AZ & beyond
WillieC
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by WillieC »

Just when you need a skyhook...how many drones to lift that weight?
DesertAlbin736
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by DesertAlbin736 »

Update: The middle photo above showing the mast being raised on a center cockpit sailboat is of a Parker Dawson 26. Very similar to our Albin 25's in basic layout, sans pilot house. Of course the main differences below the waterline are having a shoal keel/centerboard since it is a sailboat, a retractable transom hung rudder, and a fair amount of deadrise. The center cockpit/aft cabin design dictates wheel steering, and unusual feature for a sailboat of this size with transom hung rudder. Most conventional aft cockpit sailboats under 30 feet are usually tiller steered. These boats also went by the names of Dawson 26, Bombay 25, and Nauset 25. About 300 or so built during the 1970s by several different companies using the same molds. Also a few were ketch rigged with two masts. Guess these are even more rare than Albin 25's.

Here's an owner's description of a Parker Dawson 26 on the Trailer Sailor forum (which I used to hang out on back in the early 2000's). Although about the same size & displacement as the A25, all things considered I like the Albin design much better.

https://forum.trailersailor.com/post.ph ... id=1461077
La Dolce Vita
1971 Albin 25 #736
Yanmar 3GM30F
Gig Harbor Boatworks Nisqually 8 dinghy
Residence: Peoria, AZ
Homeport: Lake Pleasant, AZ & beyond
Beta Don
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by Beta Don »

I think you will find the mast raising is well worth the effort for a several day cruise - I wouldn't want to do it every day, but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages, IMO

We trailer sailed an O'Day 25 for several years - Even took it from Biloxi to the Puget Sound for a couple months. Raising the mast was no big deal because the shrouds kept it pretty much on centerline going up and down and we used a halyard winch to raise it and lower it. I *think* I could do it by myself, but the Admiral was always there to help, so never had to try it by myself

Never been aboard an A25 in any sea conditions - I *assume* they are more sea kindly than our A27 was, but if not, a stabilizing sail would be most welcome, not to mention all the other advantages you've mentioned

Most motorsailers motor much better than they sail, but if you're not in a hurry, and not always trying to maintain hull speed, the sail will provide a good deal of the motive power, often more than 50% which can result in a significant fuel savings. I made a trip across the Gulf delivering a friends Fisher 37 from Ft Lauderdale to Biloxi and we used the sail rig most of the time and ran the engine at just a fast idle which got us to near hull speed on any favorable tack and the fuel savings were better than 50%. No question the 'ride' is significantly improved

Since you come from a sailing background, I suspect you'll probably like motorsailing . . . . especially on a smaller boat where the ride improvement alone will make it worth your while

Don
1984 A27 FC #116 'Beta Carina'
Yanmar Turbo Intercooled 100 HP
Homeport Biloxi Back Bay
hetek
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by hetek »

I stepped the mast on my Dad's Catalina 22. ...When I was 16. I might have had help on the aft stay but my memory is a bit fuzzy these days.

It was the "front to back" method, you describe as being similar to the Albin 25 way. I recall footing the mast, connecting the fore and side stays and just walking it up, hand over hand. It was a bit wobbly when up as the stays hadn't been tensioned yet, but there wasn't any risk of falling either.

Would I do it today? Dunno. I guess my 16 year old self was a bit more fearless than my present day self. Today I'd rather turn the key.
Jon B.
Former owner of...
"Bunkie" - a 1984 A27FC
New owner of...
1977 A25 deLuxe - a work in progress
DesertAlbin736
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by DesertAlbin736 »

Jon,

I'm working on a power assisted mast raising system which hopefully will make the job easier. While roughly equivalent in size to a C22 mast, it's fairly stout. Tear drop cross section, 4" x 2.5", 21.5 feet long, and has a small bronze halyard winch attached below the gooseneck. Actual measured weight is 44 lbs.

Since it will be raised front to back, the boom & topping lift can be utilized as a "gin pole", similar to this setup as shown in Bruce Bingham's "Sailor's Sketchbook".
AA mast 20180220_135806_resized.jpg
I have the 2000 lb version of this 12V DC ATV/utility winch from Harbor Freight that we used to use for mast raising on our Catalina 25. The power cable is long enough to reach my house battery bank & hooks up with alligator clips.

Here's the winch as pictured in the Harbor Freight catalog. They no longer sell the 2000 lb size I have, replaced by 2500 lb, but otherwise looks the same. I've fabricated a bracket to attach the winch to the mainsheet fitting on the aft cabin top & will hook the winch cable directly to the end of the boom. Once everything is set up, the mast stepped, forestay and side shrouds attached, boom & guy lines attached the Admiral will operate the wired remote control switch from the aft cabin top while I walk it up.
image_25600.jpg
In order to keep the mast going straight up & not tipping I've made a temporary wooden clamp with eye bolts to attach to the mast within arm's reach of the base & run guy lines down to the cabin top. The boom will have 'boom guys' to keep it in line. I've also made a plywood shield to place in front of the windshield to protect the glass in case the mast slipped whilst attaching the butt to the step bracket. Next thing is to make a cradle to go over the bow rails to rest the mast on.

Mast raising on the Catalina was back to front, and previous owners had added an arm on the trailer allowing use of the hand cranked bow winch. Since the Admiral had a tough time cranking the winch, I got the electric winch, which I kept after selling that boat. In this picture you can see that arm extending up to the level of the bow pulpit. The winch cable was wire, and the arm had pulley sheaves built in. So the jib halyard would be attached to the winch, the Admiral would stand on the ground operating the electric winch whilst I stood on deck guiding the mast as it went up & then attach the forestay, which in the case of the Catalina was an FFI roller furler. I had "baby stays" attached to the upper shrouds to help prevent side to side tipping. That mast was 28 feet long (our C25 was the tall rig version), and much heavier than the A25's mast. Mostly we kept that boat stored at the lake with the mast up. This photo was as we were getting ready to take it to San Diego for the summer of 2012. The hassle of dealing with this mast to take the boat anywhere other than the 4 miles long by 2 miles wide lake was the main reason for switching to the Albin.

This is not my first rodeo of mast raising on trailer sailor boats. I first started sailing on Lake Pleasant 20 years ago, so we've long since outgrown it hence all our various wanderings, although we still like to hang out with our sailing club friends.
Nikon 2012 351.jpg
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La Dolce Vita
1971 Albin 25 #736
Yanmar 3GM30F
Gig Harbor Boatworks Nisqually 8 dinghy
Residence: Peoria, AZ
Homeport: Lake Pleasant, AZ & beyond
DesertAlbin736
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by DesertAlbin736 »

Don,
Never been aboard an A25 in any sea conditions - I *assume* they are more sea kindly than our A27 was...
I doubt that. We rolled 15* to one side and 15* to the other in a lively snap roll crossing Chesapeake Bay in a relatively light beam sea. If that had been in a sailboat we'd have been heeled a steady 5 to 10 degrees on a nice beam reach.
baycrossing screen shot.jpg
baycrossing screen shot2.jpg
If anyone is curious, that's Hooper Island Light off in the distance.
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La Dolce Vita
1971 Albin 25 #736
Yanmar 3GM30F
Gig Harbor Boatworks Nisqually 8 dinghy
Residence: Peoria, AZ
Homeport: Lake Pleasant, AZ & beyond
dkirsop
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by dkirsop »

Oh yes. Looks like a typical crossing of the Georgia Strait minus the spray coming over the top.
Hull No. 1013, 1971
DesertAlbin736
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by DesertAlbin736 »

Yeah, been there, done that too.
La Dolce Vita
1971 Albin 25 #736
Yanmar 3GM30F
Gig Harbor Boatworks Nisqually 8 dinghy
Residence: Peoria, AZ
Homeport: Lake Pleasant, AZ & beyond
hetek
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by hetek »

Aha! That's where you mast will help out - attenuating the roll!

Just having a mast up even without sails will help. I read somewhere that old sailing salts would connect an anchor to a halyard and raise it up the mast to add mass aloft. I presumed they only did this at anchorage. Would look odd under sail. Actually, would look odd regardless!
Jon B.
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"Bunkie" - a 1984 A27FC
New owner of...
1977 A25 deLuxe - a work in progress
DesertAlbin736
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by DesertAlbin736 »

Work is progessing on the mast raising system. So far have the 12V ATC winch adapted to attach to the mainsheet fitting. Yesterday finished a MacGyvered temporary wood clamp with eye bolts that will attached to the mast 5 feet up from the base, and today finished corresponding boards with eye bolts that will slip under the loops of the cabin top hand rails at right angles to the mast step. Ropes tied between those boards and the mast clamp will act as steadying guys to prevent side to side tipping as the mast goes up through the critical angles before the upper shrouds tighten up. Next on the agenda is a mast cradle to go over the bow rails. Luckily I have a lot of different types of lumber laying around, including plywood, 2x4's and 2x2's. Even had a bunch of lag screw eye bolts to pick from.

Another aspect is what to do with the VHF whip antenna that's attached to the starboard side of the wheel house. Either raised vertically or stowed horizontally it would be prone to snagging jib sheets or being hit by the mainsail boom. So I went down to West Marine to buy a pair of female RG8X connectors and a male to female barrel connector so I can remove the antenna when the mast is installed, or use the whip antenna when we're in powerboat mode. While there at the West Marine store I rummaged through their table of clearance items and ran across a brass Weems & Plath Endurance series 125 barometer, something I've been looking for to mount on the dashboard at the helm station between the VHF and the bracket compass. This model barometer sells for $144 on Amazon. Same item is $155 from Defender. Ditto for Go2Marine. Apparently West Marine is discontinuing that model and they had one left in the store on the clearance table which I grabbed for $64 out the door, including sales tax. All in all turned out to be a good day despite being unusually cold and damp & upper 50s.
weems barometer.jpg
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La Dolce Vita
1971 Albin 25 #736
Yanmar 3GM30F
Gig Harbor Boatworks Nisqually 8 dinghy
Residence: Peoria, AZ
Homeport: Lake Pleasant, AZ & beyond
markdbecker
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by markdbecker »

Looking forward to your pictures and plans........... I have the sail option and only use it when on a trip of a week or more.......
Ticaboo ghosting in Padre Bay on Lake Powell.JPG
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Ticaboo
1970 Albin 25 series 2 #575
Yanmar 3GM30F
Residence: Jackson, Michigan
Homeport: Higgins Lake, Michigan & beyond
DesertAlbin736
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by DesertAlbin736 »

That's such a great picture! One of these days we'll have to get up to Lake Powell, it's only 5 hours drive from here. Not likely this year though unless we decided to stop there on the way back from Washington State some time in August, or make a separate trip in September or early October. Gets real hot up there in summer & cold in the winter. Was there once during July '83 & it got up to 116. We take the inland route to up through Utah, Idaho, and Oregon & pass through Page on the way up and back. When we first bought our boat and hauled it down from Idaho we stopped at Page & put in at Wahweap for test run. But there were problems with the raw water pump losing prime & set off the hi temp alarm, so we weren't able to do any cruising. Problem turned out to be a crack in the raw water strainer. You have the same 3GM30F engine as us, so you know how the raw water intake hose has to loop up & over the engine bed.

By the way, what's your preferred method of mast raising? I notice from your photo that your mast step sets more forward than ours, and a compression post down below I presume? Also only upper shroud & no lowers? That's interesting because your boat is older than ours by one model year and 161 hull numbers. I had thought your mast configuration was a later version than ours where the mast steps right up against the windshield & doesn't have a compression post, just the "gusset" brace or whatever it's called as shown in the owner manual technical drawing. Would also like to hear your take on performance under sail. Do you sail with the motor off, or motor-sail with the engine running to help steerage?
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La Dolce Vita
1971 Albin 25 #736
Yanmar 3GM30F
Gig Harbor Boatworks Nisqually 8 dinghy
Residence: Peoria, AZ
Homeport: Lake Pleasant, AZ & beyond
WillieC
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by WillieC »

Mark, that sure is nice! Oh the places you'll go and the things you'll see! So different from the Puget Sound. Lovely.

We have been having snow up here of late and it never lasts long. I have a heater running in the boat which is on the trailer right next to the house. As the snow was melting off the boat I noticed a patch about four inches by six inches about 18 inches in front of the center of the windshield that melted first. Since we do not have the sail set up, I am guessing this spot has something to do with where the mast was planned to go. Somewhere in all the info we have on this boat, a PO commented that "obviously" the WillieC at some point had the sail kit installed. This is about the only indication I am aware of that the boat was rigged. (1973, DeLuxe, 1575 or thereabouts.) am intrigued by all this talk of the sail set-up, but not enough at this point to do anything about it. But that picture...Wow! How was the picture taken?
DesertAlbin736
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Re: Motor sail option?

Post by DesertAlbin736 »

Rick, if your boat ever had a sail rig at one time then there should be some evidence of shroud & stays "chain plates" & various other rig fittings or at least patched up holes where they were removed.
Boat is parked on the street in front of the house right now as I get to work on it. Was going to be on the lake this weekend but we got a cold snap, sunny & clear but chilly only 54 right now.
La Dolce Vita
1971 Albin 25 #736
Yanmar 3GM30F
Gig Harbor Boatworks Nisqually 8 dinghy
Residence: Peoria, AZ
Homeport: Lake Pleasant, AZ & beyond
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