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Good news, bad news...and back to good!

Not model or forum specific.

Moderators: DougSea, RobS

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DougSea
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Good news, bad news...and back to good!

Post by DougSea »

So, I get home Friday night, change my clothes and head down to the marina where I am SURE I'm going to find my boat still sitting on the hard. Even though I'd dropped of my "appreciation package" to the yard manager and crew the folks in the office were telling me "no way"

Drive in and the autopilot in my head drives right to the spot where she sits, and where I've just done two marathon sessions working until 5:00AM (yes, that's AM!) getting her ready. But wait, she's not there! Joy, oh joy she's got to be in the water! I've got a reasonable idea of where she'll be in a slip and it just takes me 5 minutes to find her. Do a quick inspection of my new transducer setup, no leaks. Check the bow thruster, which was next to worthless by the end of last season. Apparently the barnacle population WAS the problem and it's working great. Check the raw water strainer, antifreeze is gone and the engine a slightly warm, they've run her at least a bit. Fire her up, just to hear the engine and she sounds great. Can't wait to get her out on Saturday, try out the reconfigured prop.

End of the good news.

Saturday afternoon comes along. Still doing some work, cleaning and organizing, getting the USCG documentation numbers mounted, old Maryland numbers off, getting everything ship-shape. It's getting a bit late so, if I want to get a ride in today I need to go.

Slip the lines and head out of Norwalk harbor. Everything is great. Boat is handling well, engine sounds good. Push the throttle up to about half. She's accelerating well. No issues. Now it's time to see what this new prop's doing for me. Push her up to WOT.

I'm sure the look on my face as the RPMs topped out at 2500 was priceless.

WTF!!! :? Then I look behind me. A cloud of black smoke is hanging over the water behind me. Not good. Back her down. Check temp - good. Open the engine hatch and look and listen - good. Throttle back up - not good.

(This is the moment when the MORRON in the 30' cruiser comes roaring over to me to ask "Is there a safe way out of here? I've got to get out of the harbor and don't know where to go." Being in fact a nice guy, and thinking "And I think I've got problems", I tell clueless which buoy to head to and which way to turn to follow the channel. After he nearly rams me and I back down hard to avoid a nice crunch he and his family head off into the gathering darkness...right past said buoy and failing to turn thereby heading right for the rocks. I now discover that my feeble horn when sounded 20+ times followed by major arm waving WILL actually get someone’s attention. I, by way of big arm motions and yelling, get the weekend warrior headed to, at least temporary, safety) And now back to my story...

So I head back to the dock at 2000 rpms. Mad, perplexed and tired. Is it the new prop? Engine problem? At this speed everything sounds great. Get her buttoned up and head home to see if I can figure out what’s going on. Get out my copy of Peter Compton’s “Troubleshooting Marine Diesels” and check the “excessive smoke” section. It’s looking like it’s the prop (unlikely given Denis’s experience and my trust in the prop guy) or an injector problem. Which also seems unlikely to me given the solid performance at lower RPMs. I flip through the book and find my answer.

Have you figured it out yet?

If you guessed “turbo-charger” you win!

It seems that black smoke is caused by too much fuel/not enough air and a search of Boatdiesel.com had many examples of boats not performing due to turbo problems. Went down to the boat this morning and peeled back the funky foam cover on the air intake so I could see the blades of the turbo. Fired up the engine. Blades didn’t budge. Couldn’t figure out how to get the protective metal screen off of the intake without some major effort so I wasn’t able to see if I could get the damn thing to move. (Yes, I would have shut the engine off first)

So, we’ll have to wait for the morning to see what the yard has to say. In some ways I’m happy. It happened early, it wasn’t catastrophic, and I’ve got 3 weeks to get it straightened out before heading to BI. Not an auspicious start to the season but I’ll stay positive.

I’ll keep you posted as this unfolds.

(Note: If you DON’T have the book above, or a subscription to boatdiesel.com – I’d correct that now – both were very helpful and informative)
Last edited by DougSea on Wed May 16, 2007 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Doug
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Post by Mariner »

The good news is that you appear to have quickly diagnosed the problem. That could save you hundreds in shop hours. Also, although expensive, turbos aren't hard to replace. I would make sure that the blades are expected to turn at low rpm, and if not, try the same but with it spooled up to higher rpm. Assuming that you can confirm the turbo is the problem, you can most likely remove it yourself and take it somewhere to be rebuilt with plenty of time to spare for the rendezvous.

Best of luck. Mechanical problems are never fun.
Tuxedo
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Post by Tuxedo »

Before you take the turbo apart, why don't you check the fuel filter. As I was reading the report, I was thinking fuel filter, especially since the boat was layed up all winter.
Tom
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Post by DougSea »

Thanks Mariner.

You hit the nail on the head, I've at least got an answer to what's wrong and won't be spending a lot of time and money on a diagnosis. I did run the RPMs up to over 1000 and the blades didn't budge. I also confirmed that, although they don't produce much if any boost at low engine RPMs, that the blades should be turning.

I've got a call in to the yard and they're going to take a look at her today. The one "challenge" I've got is that I travel for work during the week and I'm going away with my wife this weekend; so I have to rely on the paid guys for the repair. Have my fingers crossed!
Doug
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Post by DougSea »

Tuxedo wrote:Before you take the turbo apart, why don't you check the fuel filter. As I was reading the report, I was thinking fuel filter, especially since the boat was layed up all winter.
Hi Tuxedo.

The fuel filters were actually changed as part of the layup. Also, according to the various experts, black smoke is an indication of unburned fuel, which usually stems from not enough air or engine overloading.

Take that combined with a non-turning turbo and I'm fairly confident I've got the problem isolated. :(

The mechanics at Norwalk Cove are pretty experienced so I'm sure they'll tell me if it's something else. I tried to just pass along what I knew to hopefully shave a few hours off of the bill!
Doug
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2006 35TE Convertible, Volvo D6-370's
Former owner - Sonny III, 1997 28TE with "The BEAST"
tomcat rio

...the shop took my boat out just after launch...

Post by tomcat rio »

...the shop took my boat out just after launch (new 310 peninsular) the mech told me the turbo didn't kick in right away. he said the just cleared it with a series of rapid throttle excursions. he said it wasn't unusual after a winter layup. there was some excess black soot around the exhaust. i cleaned that up and it seems to be fine.
..
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Post by Denis »

Doug, I am glad to hear your boat is in but sorry that you are having some problems. I am going down to my boat thursday, I will check to see at what RPM I can see the turbo rotate. What I know about a turbo you can put in a thimble, but I am a quick learner. I will check that for you. Denis
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DougSea
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Post by DougSea »

Denis wrote:Doug, I am glad to hear your boat is in but sorry that you are having some problems. I am going down to my boat thursday, I will check to see at what RPM I can see the turbo rotate. What I know about a turbo you can put in a thimble, but I am a quick learner. I will check that for you. Denis
Hey Dennis,

Guess you can put my turbo knowledge in that thimble along with yours! :?

I had called the yard first thing Monday to give them my "shade tree diagnosis". As of yesterday afternoon I hadn't heard back so, being unable to stand it anymore, I gave them a call. It went like this:

Me: Hi Patty, Doug with the Albin calling to check on the boat.

Patty: Hi Doug, they changed the impeller and gasket on your water pump like you asked, and they freed up your turbo. You're all set.

Me: Oh. That's great. Thanks!

This is followed by me driving and hour and a half from where I'm working for a client to get to the boat last night with a half hour of daylight left. Fire her up, run her out and...

3600 RPM's on the nose, 24 knots!!! Wooohooooo!!! 8)

Backing down to 3100 was giving me around 18+ knots. Very nice!

(No Tomcat, I don't have fuel numbers! The flowscan is on the project list for this summer :) )

So, apparently a sticking turbo, as Tomcat mentioned, is NOT that unusual after a winter layup. I'm going to stop by the next chance I get to ask just what's involved in freeing it up but the long and the short of this whole thing is that my boat's running great and has now hit speeds greater than ever before with full rated WOT RPMs. I owe a testimonial note to Chuck at PitchPerfect - he nailed the rpms perfectly and the boat was sooo smooth.

I'm one happy guy right now!
Doug
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Former owner - Sonny III, 1997 28TE with "The BEAST"
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Post by Denis »

Great news Doug, it sounds like your numbers are just about the same as mine are. Im going to let Chuck know also.
I talked to my son today, he is an aircraft mechanic, and I asked him about your turbo. Of course he knows aircraft and they are much more fussy about such things than we may be. I asked him if your turbo may be sticking from the layover and if it could just be persuaded a little on start up. Heaven forbid you touch the turbo! :roll:
Anyway, Im glad you are ready to roll :P
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Hot shuts and keeping the turbo happy

Post by William »

A turbocharger, in general, is a very sinple and durable item. The one thing that will ruin a turbo, however, is "hot shutting" your engine. "Hot shutting" means bringing your engine down to idle then switching it off immediately. The turbo might be sitting there spinning at 50,000 to 100,000 RPM if you were running at 2,000+ RPM. When you shut down, the main gallery oil pressure disappears, and the turbo shaft spins with no lubrication. They will eventually sieze up when hot shut too many times. A turbo is expensive, but should last the life of the engine.

Some people believe there is a check valve to keep turbos from drianing their oil during hot shuts. No such thing.

SO: ALWAYS idle down for a few minutes before shutting. Bring it to 750-1,000 and let it idle 3 minutes or so to give the turbo time to slow.

I'd be interested to know if your turbo had a burned shaft. Ask the mechanic.
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Post by jcollins »

SO: ALWAYS idle down for a few minutes before shutting. Bring it to 750-1,000 and let it idle 3 minutes or so to give the turbo time to slow.
I used to own a Chrysler Conquest (Mitsubishi) The first thing I was told when I bought the car was to always let it idle 3 minutes before shutting down. Out of habit I do the same with my boat. I always let the engine idle while securing lines. The last thing I do is turn the engine off.
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Post by Mariner »

Fortunately, on a boat, you typically have a long time of idling before shut down due to speed limits in harbors and marinas. Still, I wait until all the lines are secured before shutting the engine down. That gives it several minutes to cool down.
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Post by Denis »

As I have been instructed, the turbo will spin down fairly quickly because it is always in the compressor mode. But the real damage is from the heat cooking it after shut down. Most car turbos are oil lubed and cooled plus water cooled. I think our boat turbos are only oil cooled, so when they are shut down the residual heat is what causes the damage. A good several minute cool down idle is very important for us. All I know is when that baby kicks in the power boost is great!
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Turbo

Post by William »

My 86 Albin 34 has the 210 hp Cummins 6BT5.9M with a water-cooled turbo.
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